Ju Jutsu show and tell....

[Andrew Craig]

I thought it would be interesting to have a thread where people could tell everyone about the particular style(s) of Ju Jutsu they practise. I would be really interested to hear a short synopsis of what your style is about, without giving away too many secrets


So to get the ball rolling I will go first.

I practise a modern style called Atemi Jutsu. My instructor told me that the origins are simply that after people trained in Judo, Karate and Aikido separately, Atemi Jutsu was seen as the integration of the other arts. I believe the purpose was to show how with a little adaptation the parent arts could be used together more effectively in self-defence. I know of at least 3 independent Atemi Jutsu groups in the Leeds area of the UK where I train. I would be especially interested to hear of any other similar composite systems elsewhere.

The basic principle of our system is to overcome an opponent by attacking vital points. This is done in such a way that if it does not directly stop the opponent you have made safe and the opponent is unbalanced. You are in a position to carry on to a throw or joint attack or other such technique.

Overall the system contains many of the methods of the parent systems. However the techniques are often slightly modified to fit our aims. To give one example, the Judo throw Seionage. Usually if you assume a right-handed throw, you take hold of Ukie's left lapel. We grab the right, which makes it easier to get into the correct position for the throw, and as a result the throw feels more comfortable and stronger for Tori (I believe this variation is illegal in Judo competition, but please correct me if I am wrong). The rest of the technique from unbalancing and entering, to the actual throw remains the same.

So over to you...

I would be particularly interested in hearing from Koryu practicioners, especially in the UK.

Best

(edited to get the silly smilie working properly)

[tommysella]

Andrew Craig wrote:

Overall the system contains many of the methods of the parent systems. However the techniques are often slightly modified to fit our aims. To give one example, the Judo throw Seionage. Usually if you assume a right-handed throw, you take hold of Ukie's left lapel. We grab the right, which makes it easier to get into the correct position for the throw, and as a result the throw feels more comfortable and stronger for Tori (I believe this variation is illegal in Judo competition, but please correct me if I am wrong). The rest of the technique from unbalancing and entering, to the actual throw remains the same.

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I don't think there are any other style where you can find so many variations on Seoi-nage as in Judo. The variation where Tori take hold of Ukes right lapel is legal in competition and also common. In Judo we call it Eri-seoi-nage...

The variation one can do are the following:

Ippon-seoi-nage (the normal one)
Morote-seoi-nage (the normal one)
Eri-seoi-nage
seoi-nage (one arm variation)
Seoi-nage (normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)
Ippon-seoi-nage ((normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)

Regards,
Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

[Andrew Craig]

Hi Tommy,

Thanks for your reply and clarification.

Could you possibly describe "Seoi-nage (normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)" that you mentioned in a little more detail.

I am probably being obtuse, but I can't quite visualise what you describe with regard to executing the throw to the other side.

Best

[Stevo]

Hi guys,

Are the variations on ippon seoi nage you're referring to soto (outside) seio nage and uchi (inside) seoi nage? Uchi seoi nage is the normal throw ie, ippon seoi nage. Your head is postioned near your attacker's bicep. In soto seoi nage the attacker's arm is over your opposite shoulder, ie your head is on the "outside" of their arm, near the tricep. We sometimes use it against high thrusting attacks, eg attempted single-handed straight-arm strangle or a high punch.

Back to the topic of the post:

You mentioned that Atemi Jutsu is a derivative of Judo, Aikido and Karate. Ju jutsu was the forerunner of Judo and Aikido, and also gave rise to several Japanese styles of karate.

I study Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Ju Jutsu as taught by Shihan Jan de Jong. The Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu originated around the mid 14th century. It is characterised by a very even balance of locks, throws and strikes. The style includes strangles, sacrifice techniques and weaponry. It resembles a very "hard" style of aikido or a "soft' style of Goju Ryu, and is somewhat similar to Wado Ryu.

It differs markedly from judo, being a combative style rather than a sportive one. For instance, there is very little reliance on actually gripping the clothing to effect a throw. In earlier times the style was classified as "kumi uchi". During the 1500's it was referred to as "kenden kumiuchi". The body movements, unbalancing, and techniques were designed for a multiple attacker environment. This is reflected in the training methods.

Tsutsumi developed a very effective method for training the reflexes. This reflex training is a trademark of the style. Tsutsumi also made use of yoko kaiten ukemi (sideways rolling fall). These are both peculiar to Tsutsumi Ryu. Neither the reflex training nor the sideways roll were taught outside of the school before Shihan de Jong's National and European seminars.

[Andrew Craig]

Thanks for the reply Stevo!

I really was being dense about the description of the throw. What you describe makes perfect sense.

Your description of Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Ju Jutsu was really interesting. I have heard the term "Kumi Uchi" you used before, describing grappling when wearing armour. Is this the correct usage within Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu? If this is the case I wonder do you use throwing techniques such as hip throws or shoulder throws against an armoured opponent? What if any modifications would be needed to techniques such as Seionage or Koshinage? I imagine the added bulk (volume rather than mass) of armour would make similar throws very awkward to perform.

Best

[Graham Wild]

Andrew I would suggest looking in Jigoro Kano's Kodokan Judo as he demonstrates some Kito Ryu (I think it's Kito) Kata which where for kumi uchi. Other than that there is not much else, and the techniques you mentioned are not that different as 'bulk' does not matter as they are even part of Kimarite of Sumo and they have no problem preforming the techniques.
Also in addition there is Ryote Seoi Nage where, for example, you shoulder throw from a Shomen Uchi with a Sword taking both arms to throw. Using morote positioning from judo's point of view or for Stevo it would be ippon or morote.
Stevo in our kenjutsu school we have a sideways roll where we roll like a diagonal roll but sideways and across the shoulders, also the side ways roll your referring to is how we would do a backwards roll with a sword in our obi. So you fall back onto your right side then over your left shoulder and your sword never touches the ground. I believe some other sword styles may utilise this but just refer to it as ushiro kaiten ukemi.
PS Stevo you may be wondering how I know this stuff well look over there <== at the side bar. I do Aikido at Jan De Jong's with Sensei Han's as well as Shinto Seishin Ryu.

[Neil Hawkins]

Andrew

I too am from the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. We no longer teach actual grappling in armour, but you can definitely see the techniques that were used for that purpose. They lend themselves to any restrictive clothing, like a suit, or the body armour that the Police or Military special units wear.

As for seoinage and ogoshi, they are fairly recent additions to our curriculumn from what I can tell. Supposedly one of our instructors, Maseo Tsutsumi, was involved quite heavily with Kano during the development of Judo and many of the more dynamic throws were brought back from that exchange.

Other techniques were added when De Jong Sensei trained with Mochizuki Sensei of Yoseikan Aiki Budo. (In fact Graham, that is where all of the Aikido and some of the weapons work we teach comes from.)

Dynamic throws developed during the late 1600's and 1700's, armour was no long worn and the various schools had more time to experiment. I personally believe that small quick movements like ukigoshi and some of the foot or leg takedowns are the oldest, gradually followed by the bigger hip throws and then shoulder and sacrifice techniques.

I have nothing really to base this on other than observation and application so I would welcome anyone elses comments.

Regards

Neil

[tommysella]

Andrew Craig wrote:

Could you possibly describe "Seoi-nage (normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)" that you mentioned in a little more detail.
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Hard to describe throws by text but I will give it a try.

Holding the normal right grip (right hand hold the lapel and the left hold Ukes sleeve) you just turn to the right and perform the throw as if you have had a left throw gripping...As I said...hard to describe by just text...

Hope this help...

Tommy

[Graham Wild]

That is interesting Neil. Could you give me some additional information on which techniques are believed to be 'recent additions' to Tsutsumi as I can see where part of the syllabus may have been influenced by judo as well as Shihan's training with Mochizuki Sensei, because I was told that some of the nage waza we do are from judo, that is they where created by judoka. For example hane goshi was developed out of a failed uki goshi (which you suggest is an old koshi waza and I would agree). It would be interesting to see a time line of when types of waza would have been added with the changes happening in Japan.
I don't know about seio nage and ogoshi being brought back from judo. Koshi waza are part of aikijutsu and that is where Aikido's koshi waza are from and some of them don't look like any judo koshi waza for example our koshi gaeshi (which I think would have come from Shihan's time with Mochizuki Sensei) looks nothing like the koshi waza of judo and is the basic koshi nage of 'mainstream' Aikido. So I think Tsutsumi may have already had these and similar techniques prior to Maseo Tsutsumi involvement with Professor Kano. If I am wrong then feel free to correct me. These techniques (ryote seoi nage and koshi gaeshi) are also used as tachi tori in Aikido, which would suggest that they have been around prior to the late 1800's when you where aloud to carry your sword.
I would agree about the sutemi waza, definitely not the best place to be on a battlefield so they would not have bean battlefield techniques, but these too are also used in sumo so I will do a bit of research and see if I can find anything on the history of sumo waza.

[tommysella]

Neil wrote:

As for seoinage and ogoshi, they are fairly recent additions to our curriculumn from what I can tell. Supposedly one of our instructors, Maseo Tsutsumi, was involved quite heavily with Kano during the development of Judo and many of the more dynamic throws were brought back from that exchange.
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I belive seoi-nage is an rather old throw. It is one of the techniques of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, and that mean that it is at least from the beginning of 1800.

In Kito-ryu there is seoi-otoshi which is simular to seoi-nage. This means that seoi-nage-looking techniques can be even older...

By the way, I have a list of the nage waza of judo on my home page, where I have listed also in what other style (koryu) you can find the throw. Anyone is welcome to contribute...

Tommy

[tommysella]

Forgot the URL:

nage-waza-page is:
http://home.astrakan.hig.se/tommy/judo/nagewaza.html

Startpage is:
http://home.astrakan.hig.se/tommy/judo/index.html

Tommy

[Graham Wild]

Thanks Tommy.

[Graham Wild]

I take it these are where the Kodokan have taken their waza from, as I am sure other styles/schools would have similar or the same waza?

[Jay Bell]

Hi Graham,

I can only really speak on Hiza Garuma. This was the technique from Kukishin ryu that Takamatsu sensei taught while guest instructing at the Kodokan, though Takamatsu sensei wasn't a part of the Kodokan, he was Soke of Kukishin ryu.

[MarkF]

Oh, boy, Jay, you just may have given the green flag to a debate over the existence of hiza guruma and from where it came.

Not me.

Mark