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Thread: Kiyose Nakae

  1. #46
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    http://hem.passagen.se/stni9961/juhist.htm
    some more interesting information
    Charles Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arman
    Dear E-Budo members:

    What do you know about the biography of Kiyose Nakae, the man who produced the classic work, "Jiu Jitsu Complete." Was his style related to the now lost Kito-ryu jujutsu? or something else? It is a really wonderful book - and I'm just trying to figure out the lineage of his art.

    Thanks,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD
    Just found the book (2nd hand) in a small bookstore at Jogjakarta. Will try to purchase it. On a first glance, it contains many excellent techniques. Nakae sensei uses drawings of people in civilian clothers (not Budogi) and some pictures which looks like it was taken straight out of instructional scrolls.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  3. #48
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    My mom has located some pictures of nakae sensi with my dad and my grandfather .

    Nakae sensi maintained to the best of my dads memory that nakae sensi was teaching teckniques of "Kito Ryu Jujutsu " he often would explain the difference between the old and new schools .

    Infact in the late 60's both mike pasquali sr and my dad advertised that they were teaching the anciant art of "kito ryu Jujutsu as passed to them by Professor Kiyose Nakae .

    My father has a several certificates issued by nakae all simply have the japanese Kanji for Jujutsu and under Nakae's signiture the address for the NYC judo club that he ran .

    Despite my bad grammer (lol) I have decided to write a article about kiyose Nakae and his history and influence on Jujutsu in north america .

    Charles Scott
    Charles Scott

  4. #49
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    That's interesting to hear. However, there has been speculation for some time now that Nakae taught Kito Ryu and, though it's helpful to hear yet another second-hand verification of that, it would be nice to get some hard proof. Though something tells me that goal may remain forever elusive ... unless somebody can track him down to some location in Japan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_1
    My father has a several certificates issued by nakae all simply have the japanese Kanji for Jujutsu [....]
    Charles Scott
    Again, it just says "jujutsu" and not any particular school of jujutsu, and so doesn't help much. In fact, as I'm sure people here much more knowledgeable than I can attest, if he was truly teaching Kito Ryu he wouldn't be awarding "certificates" that just said "jujutsu" on it. I think it's clear that he was not teaching formal Kito Ryu (or whatever art(s) he learned) to his Western students, but just bits and pieces of what he knew, so-called "tricks", a watered-down version of what he really knew, just the parts that appealed to Western sensibilities at that time. Whatever the reasons are for that, who knows, though we can take some good guesses (not wanting to teach foreigners, not being allowed to teach foreigners, etc.). But whatever art(s) he knew, though he most likely didn't teach them formally, they obviously would be reflected in his style and techniques nonetheless. So it would seem to me that, if one were to compare what Nakae's students have learned from him to Kito Ryu, the similarities should be obvious, right? If not, then I would say, whether or not he knew Kito Ryu, he wasn't teaching it to Westerners. It just seems to me that if he really was teaching Kito Ryu, it would be easy to verify since his students could show what they learn and it would be seen to be the same as Kito Ryu (though finding extant Kito Ryu is another issue, a topic this thread has already touched upon).

    Of course, this is all so hard since Nakae is long gone and there are but a handful of people left who can claim direct lineage to him ...
    Jonathan Dirrenberger
    Stanford Jujitsu Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by jodirren
    I think it's clear that he was not teaching formal Kito Ryu (or whatever art(s) he learned) to his Western students, but just bits and pieces of what he knew, so-called "tricks", a watered-down version of what he really knew, just the parts that appealed to Western sensibilities at that time. ...though finding extant Kito Ryu is another issue, a topic this thread has already touched upon.
    1. I wholeheartedly agree with the opinion that Nakae sensei did not teach pure Kito-ryu, or whatever Ryuha he was originally in, but a composition of what he deemed most useful for teaching Westerners. On the other hand, modern composite Jujutsu composed by a Japanese is, well, still Jujutsu, though not Koryu by any stretch of imagination. Koryu or not Koryu though, as long as it's enjoyable to learn, then it's worth learning.

    2. Buried deep within the pages of E-Budo, I think one of the nice people at Mugendo Budogu inc had made a statement that he had discovered a group in Japan called Nihon Kobudo Souran which still practices Kito-ryu.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  6. #51
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    Yes I have to agree with your summery .
    Kiyose Nakae never gave dan kyu ranks in jujutsu he offered 3 courses of instruction in private and semi private instruction only level one two and three he promoted judo as his primary art and the Jujutsu 3 "course" program was to compliment your judo skills by advanced understanding of the main art that contributed to judo's creation most who learned jujutsu from Nake sensi were already Judo instructors .

    The fact that he was teaching his Jujutsu as being the art that contributed to the creation of judo points us in the direction that his school was Kito ryu .

    Its sad that professor Vee is no longer with us becouse he was a good friend of Nakae sensi and could answer many of these questions .

    This is important to me as I have spent most of my life learning Jujutsu that is based on the teckniques of Kiyose Nakae .

    I have always been told that the Ryu that our Jujutsu was based on was Kito ryu and I know that many of the schools in the eastern USA and Canada have been under the same impression .

    It is my understanding that Kiyose Nakae verbally stated that his Jujutsu was kito Ryu the question is was this assumed ? becouse of the information that was published about the Judo and the arts that contributed to its creation ?

    I feel it is worth my time and energy the learn the facts about Kiyose Nakae and the origins of his Jujutsu .

    One thing is for certain Kiyose Nakae never issued Dan or Kyu Ranks in Jujutsu so anyone who claims to have received a Rank in jujutsu from Nakae sensi is dishonest it took over 4 years of training to acheive his advanced or level 3 certificate and it seems that a Dan rank in judo was required to learn jujutsu from Nakae .

    Thank you all and I am sorry if I hijacked this thread it is what led me to E-budo

    Charles Scott
    Charles Scott

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    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...68&postcount=2

    This is the post where the nice people from Mugendo inc stated that Kito-ryu still exist.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_1
    Yes I have to agree with your summery .
    Kiyose Nakae never gave dan kyu ranks in jujutsu he offered 3 courses of instruction in private and semi private instruction only level one two and three he promoted judo as his primary art and the Jujutsu 3 "course" program was to compliment your judo skills by advanced understanding of the main art that contributed to judo's creation most who learned jujutsu from Nake sensi were already Judo instructors .
    Yes sir that was also the norm in Indonesia before WWII and maybe a few years after WWII, is that we have to learn Judo first, then the instructor will teach us "Judo Defence" which is also called "Jiu Jitsu". This is how Japanese and Dutch instructors in Indonesia taught the arts.

    Its sad that professor Vee is no longer with us becouse he was a good friend of Nakae sensi and could answer many of these questions .
    Yes, this is to be regretted deeply. I have heard only very good things about Professor Visitacion.

    I feel it is worth my time and energy the learn the facts about Kiyose Nakae and the origins of his Jujutsu .
    yes sir I will be looking forward to read more about your investigations into the art of Nakae sensei.


    Thank you all and I am sorry if I hijacked this thread it is what led me to E-budo

    Charles Scott
    No sir I don't think you hijack this thread, in fact I think you rejuvenated it with new way of thinking. After reading Nakae sensei's book, I am in full agreement that his Jujutsu is a very nice Goshinjutsu/self-defense system, which may be based on Kito-ryu. Such system are, without doubt, worth learning.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  9. #54
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    I am sorry its been years since I have been back ,My Dadpassed away in 2011 and I inherited a number of pictures and even a very old crude notes and some hand drawn diagrams drawn by Nakae himself or so it appears , my Dad passed and these and other items were nearly thrown in the trash I told my sisters anything martial arts or related to his Military Law enforcement career please put away I was only given the box in 2015
    I also learned a bit more about Nakae's students etc he had another Canadian who trained directly with him who I thought was one of my Dad's students his name Was Kevin George who taught Jujutsu for nearly 40 years worked for the Federal Government as a defensive tactics instructor for Corrections Canada and ran a company called century dogs selling and training security and attack trained dogs .
    Kevin was a very dedicated student of Nakae's and was in contact with him much later than anyone I know of , Nakae Did awards several instructor certificates/letters
    I think that the letters were authored by Sensi George and signed by Nake , The letter states Kevin G has been a student of K Nakae for many years has learned all aspects of Basic to Advanced Jiu Jitsu and is authorized to instruct Jiu Jitsu and self defence no Ryu-ha or any specifics of any type are mentioned .

    He also taught Tanbo (yawara) although I find that name confusing as certain early schools of Jujutsu in NYC used the name Yawara to describe Jujutsu I am sure someone will educate me here rather than making me look stupid , as well as police baton technique I assume modified hanbojutsu .
    I have a black Yawara that was in the Box that I remember when I was a youngster and is in some pictures its a dowel with a oval circular piece on each end .

    I will pull the documents and pictures out of storage and see how they scan maybe we can have a great conclusion to this thread again sorry its been years I just had some time and googled to see if any other info came up and was reminded about my posting here .
    I will scan those and comment here but perhaps a new thread is in order .

    In summary I think its safe to say that there is no legitimate traceable history between Kito Ryu and Nakae I am certain that Nakae told his students that his teaching was based in Kito Ryu simply because for my Dad and Kevin and many others these details meant very little and the only Names I ever herd were Kito Ryu and Hakko and never were either of these names used to promote the Dojo .

    Nakae was very talented and ahead of his time and I am sure was not popular amongst many Japanese in his time Post internment camps period for both US and Canada , I would like to point out that Nakae sesni was apparently very skilled at firearms disarms and knife defence and this is what attacked many to learn from him I think he down played tradition and was a real early innovator for particle combat Jujutsu .

    We should honour him and the men who dedicated so much of there lives to promotion of Jujutsu even though it was not historically accurate these were the true pioneers of Kobudo in north America .

    Warm regards

    Charles D. Scott Jr
    Charles Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_1 View Post
    ...He also taught Tanbo (yawara) although I find that name confusing as certain early schools of Jujutsu in NYC used the name Yawara to describe Jujutsu...
    Yawara is, indeed, an old name for jujutsu. Tanbo is the correct name for the weapon. Several schools of yawara placed a strong emphasis on tanbojutsu (and tessenjutsu, etc.), and the tanbo came to be called the "yawara stick" in the USA, after Prof. Frank A. Matsuyama introduced it to several police departments in California in the 1930s and early '40s, and to the Denver police in the late '40s. In 1948 he published a small booklet titled "How to use the Yawara Stick, For Police," and he also designed his own variation of the tanbo but of molded plastic with metal knobs at the ends.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    From my notes. As a young man, Nakae worked the vaudeville circuit.

    1922:

    “Prof. Kitose Nakae, champion jiu jitsu artist of Japan appearing at Keith’s [vaudeville theater] this week, exhibited his skill before the entire squad of policemen on day duty who were bewildered at the speed of the little Jap.

    Using an unloaded revolver, several of the policemen attempted to pull the trigger of the gun before the Jap could either twist it so that the bullet would be sent in an opposite direction or to wrest the gun from their hands. The Jap also showed them several holds by which unruly persons could be taken without much trouble.”

    (ASIDE: Kiyose Nakae, age 46, lived in Chicago in 1930. He entered USA in 1903. Occupation listed as physical health instructor. In 1942, his US draft registration card was numbered U7891. Kiyose Nakae, address 5 West 52 St NY, NY.. Age 58, date of birth 6/12/1883. Born Tottori-ken, Japan. Laurence S. Byrne Jr. was listed as contact. His business was at his home address. Also, in 1953, one finds his naturalization documentation: Card 7199211, residing at 241 6th Ave, NYC, on 12/21/1953; alien registration number 1326277.)

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    Brian,

    It is my understanding that the Tanbo was the equivalent of a truncheon or baton approximately 12 - 18" long, the Bo was traditionally 6' long, the Hanbo, or half Bo, was 3' long and was essentially a walking stick, the Tanbo was approximately half again. The Yawara was much smaller, perhaps 6" and used to manipulate pressure points and enhance joint locks.

    I have been told that the Tanbo techniques were often similar or adapted from the Jutte, although some styles did specialise in it, the yawara techniques were adapted from the tessen (folded iron fan), but have not seen much evidence to support this.

    Regards
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Hawkins View Post
    It is my understanding that the Tanbo was the equivalent of a truncheon or baton approximately 12 - 18" long... The Yawara was much smaller, perhaps 6" and used to manipulate pressure points and enhance joint locks.
    I could be mistaken, but I was taught that the "yawara stick" did not exist prior to Matsuyama's development, and that all sticks shorter than the hanbo were referred to as tanbo (短棒 -- literally "short stick").
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    We were told that the difference was mostly about application, the yawara enhanced jujutsu locks, whereas the tanbo was more percussive, but we certainly did a heap of locking and throwing techniques with the tanbo. But as I've previously stated elsewhere the lineage of the style I studied was convoluted and drew from many different styles. So whilst I'm confident that many were from Takagi or Hontai Yoshin Ryu, based on what I've seen and read, I have no direct references to confirm this.

    Bottom line, in my experience terminology seems to vary considerably between styles, and is not really helped by translations to English!

    Thanks
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Hawkins View Post
    ...in my experience terminology seems to vary considerably between styles, and is not really helped by translations to English!
    Indeed; not to mention the introduction of "modern" methods into "old school" systems, and the internationalization (some would say "pollution") of Japanese arts, with subsequent two-way exchange.

    To add another interesting (to me, at least) twist, I think about Tak Kubota's "Kubotan," an even smaller device than the yawara stick, the name of which I was told is a contraction of "Kubota's Tanbo."
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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