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Thread: Kiyose Nakae

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Arman
    In any event, I didn't mean to suggest that koryu arts overall are endangered specimens. Only that many small, little known koryu will continue to die off while other, more widely practiced and better preserved koryu, will continue to thrive (if you can call it that when compared to the modern budo). Of course, a koryu can only maintain its classical integrity by limiting, to some extent, the spread of a ryu's knowledge. So, I guess it is a fine balancing act.
    True enough, but then, that's the way that it always has been and always will be. The roman legion ruled the world until their method of warfare was surpassed. While it's interesting (and often informative) to examine what they did I don't particularly mourn their passing - time moves on and the world changes.

    The only reason that the koryu remained in (more or less) one form as long as they did is that the Tokugawa did everything they could to freeze Japanese society at a certain point. In fact, that's one of the main reasons that the koryu were little use in standing up to Perry and the black ships. I do enjoy watching those demonstrations by the schools that have preserved the traditional Japanese 16 century firearms, though.

    FWIW, I seem to remember Peter Boylan arguing (a couple of years ago) that there was actually very little die off among koryu, based upon current and past traditions listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but you'd have to ask him for the details.


    Best,

    Chris

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    Chris wrote:

    Hard to say - a number of traditional schools have adopted kyu/dan rankings since Kano's time.
    ------------------------------

    I know that some schools use kyu/dan rankings but as I know, Kubota Sensei, the current headmaster of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu in Japan, does not use kyu/dan rankings...

    Regards,
    Tommy

  3. #18
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    While it is true that some koryu have adopted the kyu/dan system, I do know that the two extant branches of Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu have NOT adopted them, which argues against the legitimacy of the people mentioned above.

    Peter Boylan
    Mugendo Budogu LLC
    Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
    http://www.budogu.com

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by pboylan
    While it is true that some koryu have adopted the kyu/dan system, I do know that the two extant branches of Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu have NOT adopted them, which argues against the legitimacy of the people mentioned above.

    Peter Boylan
    Mugendo Budogu LLC
    Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
    http://www.budogu.com
    I have noticed that in some schools or countries, the kyu/dan system has been adopted for a koryu style in addition to the official system. Often it is for the west only, and certain dan ranks actually correspond with the official ranks (1. dan = shoden, 3. dan = chuden, 6.dan... and so on).
    Last edited by Jari Virta; 8th October 2001 at 11:43.

  5. #20
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    Well, there is a guy in New Jersey who claims to have menkyo kaiden from Kubota Sensei.

    His name is Calvin Lester. Here is his web page where he talks about it:
    http://www.goshinkan.org/tenjin_shinyo_ryu.htm

    I have no idea if he is legitimate or not - I just came across this page awhile ago when I was looking for info on Tenjin Shinyo-ryu
    on the web. Maybe others here have heard of him. Of course, we all know that it is very unusual for a foreigner to receive menkyo kaiden, but not unheard of. Also, I'm no expert on Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, or that familiar with Kubota Sensei, so I couldn't say who he has or hasn't given menkyo kaiden to.

    Sincerely,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD

  6. #21
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    Calvin Lester does not have Menkyo Kaiden. From what Kubota Sensei told me, he only trained in TSR for a short period of time. He only reached as far as Chudan Tachiai (Intermediate standing techniques)

    I only know of three people who have Menkyo (Not Menkyo Kaiden) one of them is Kubota Sensei's son, a senior in TSR and the third is an Australian.

    BTW, I read Calvin Lester's homepage and it doesn't exactly say that he has Menkyo Kaiden, but he does come close.

    "Although the system is over 150 years old, it has never been shared outside of Japan until October 1983. The first, and perhaps the only, person outside of Japan to earn the required license to teach the entire system is Mr. Calvin Lester. He earned these credentials while studying directly with Mr. Toshihiro Kubota."

    Not exactly true.

    Kubota Sensei is the only teacher with Menkyo Kaiden in this line of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

  7. #22
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    Thanks, Steve! I won't be referencing him in the future.

    Best,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD

  8. #23
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    Friends,

    I have found a few people using the names Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenshinshinyoryu Jujtusu with ranks attached in either there Bio or on a flier....When I would e mail them for verification of credentials with a few quesrtions or taolk to them on the phone...They would either not reply or tell me they have no true legit rank credentials in those arts...And then there's Goerge Parulski and his Okazaki- Ha Shin Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu!!!!!!!!!

    The bottom line is if you list ranks and credentials in these two arts.....You should be willing to show LEGIT credentials with either: 1. Legit teacher
    2. Legit organization that represents these arts
    with affiliations in Japan with the HOMBU


    Don't ever say because you hold rank in Judo then you also hold rank in Kitoryu or Tenjinshinyoryu Jujutsu.....


    Barry E. Southam

  9. #24
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    It was mentiond that there's not much published on koryu arts in english, that absolutely true. Books by Draeger, the Skoss's are the primary source for most of us I guess.
    Recently however, there is a book out on koryu jujutsu by Mr. Serge Mol, it's published by kodansha.
    It has got a lot of information on koryu and at this moment the most complete source of info on koryu jujutsu.
    Just to let you know.

    Johan Smits

  10. #25
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    Default Kito Ryu Alive and Well

    My first time here.....

    I am a Shodan in Kito Ryu in Australian and we have been aroud for close to 30 years in the Geelong region. There are about 10 Dojo's in Victoria which is a state of Australia. Personally, I feel that some of the schools are starting to lose the essence of the art our school is trying to reinvigorate the art. But I can assure you it is alive and well and affiliated with the Japanese Hombu.

    It is hard to find a presence on the web however even we have not yet got a web sight.

    Cheers,

    Donald Taylor

    Geelong Australia

  11. #26
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    You should make one, even if it's just a junky Geocities page or whatnot. People look for information and contacts for koryu outside of Japan all the time, and you'd probably find your little page start to float to the top of Google's list.

    Of course, if you prefer to train in obscurity with no gawking onlookers poking their noses into your dojo all the time, then that's fine too. Fame has its downsides.
    James A. Crippen

  12. #27
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    Dear All

    The other Menkyo in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu (Tenyokai,Japan) is my father Paul Masters who incerdently is the only person to have been taught the Kuden of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu by Kubota Shihanke.

    I have a suggestion ,how about E-Budo having a seperate Thread/site listing those who actually ranked in a Koryu and there grades and teachers/Lineage.


    P.S.
    Happy Birthday For Saturday Steve.
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ree
    I have a suggestion ,how about E-Budo having a seperate Thread/site listing those who actually ranked in a Koryu and there grades and teachers/Lineage.
    See the new thread in Koryu Forum
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  14. #29
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    Meanwhile, Arman is still looking for info on Nakae. All I have to say on that is "Me too! Me too!"

  15. #30
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    [QUOTE=Arman]Peter -

    Everything I have read on the subject (from Dreager, Skoss, etc.) has indicated that Kito-ryu pretty much died out after Jigoro Kano incorporated a lot of it in Kodokan Judo. Basically, the last soke died, and there was no one who really continued the art in its complete form. "

    Perhaps Draeger was referring to the Kito Bichu-ha which was the branch of Kito ryu that Kano studied and incorporated into his judo and not all branches per say. I can't find any references in Draeger's "Martial arts and ways" series which expressedly states the Kito ryu no longer exists and I see no references at all to the Kito ryu's history in the Skosses 3 books (There is only one reference at all and it deals only with cross influences.), but strangely Serge Mol does talk about the content of the the Kito Ryu curriculum in the past tense. (Maybe referring to the curriculum of the time.)

    I know that I, like many interested in judo, have read the accounts of Jigaro Kano describing his teachers desire for him to take over the system as there was no one else to do so but this probably referred once again to the Kito Bichu-ha and not all lineages of the art.

    Obviously as Peter states the Kito ryu does still exist. You can even buy a video tape from www.Mugendo.com and see one of the late Masters from the 1980s performing the waza. This was part of the Nihon no Kobudo series which was I believe was developed and approved by the Japanese Ministry of Education in conjunction with the Budokan. They made efforts to document as many traditional ryuha as they could at that time. You can be reasonably sure that they aren't poseurs.

    Now let's get back to Nakae!
    Matthew Rogers
    Scarborough Martial Arts Training Group
    http://www.spiritforging.com

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