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View Poll Results: Can you kill a human being if needed?

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  • Yes

    193 89.35%
  • No

    23 10.65%
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Thread: Can you Kill?

  1. #46
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Star Trek

    Yes, Kyukage,
    Star Trek. I'm a fan.

  2. #47
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Semantics vs. Logic

    It's not semantics, Sgathak, it's logic.
    There's a difference.
    I have to go beam back to Vulcan, now...

  3. #48
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    I believe, in answer to the original question, that I could. And furthermore, if the assailant was some thug attempting to kill me or my family, I doubt that I would even feel much guilt about it.

    Also, vermin have a nasty habit of coming back and suing you if you only injure them, even if you were legally justified in killing them in the first place.

    The PCP situation brings to mind a book I read once-a tome whose purpose was to discover the motivation and psychological impetus and effects of violence. I think it was called 'The Anatomy of Violence'. In it was described a fellow high on PCP who broke his handcuffs (and both wrists-but it didn't faze him in the slightest), and began single-handedly beating the crap out of a whole group of police officers. Mace didn't work, belaboring his skull with PR-24's didn't work, and the 19 9mm rounds he absorbed while kicking their collective butts didn't work either. It was a 12ga. slug to his head which finally stopped him. If you can 'restrain' such a guy as this, you're a better man than I! I'll stick with the Mossberg.
    David F. Craik

  4. #49
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default PCP

    Dear Soulend,
    That PCP story is amazing. I'll look into the effects of PCP some more. Intriguing, to say the least.
    Is the US legal system that messed up that assailants sue their intended victims for defending themselves?
    Best on board the ship.

  5. #50
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    The rhetoric aside, nobody can possibly know whether or not they could or would kill unless and until they've done it.

    I sincerely hope nobody here ever needs to find out. And those that already have (assuming it was justified and right), I hope you can get some sleep in peace.

    Me, I have no idea, and I pray it never comes up. And if it does, I hope I do the thing my soul can live with, whatever that may be.

    It's one thing to be a tough guy, but life and death is some serious stuff, and it isn't for the weak minded. Or maybe that's exactly who it's for.

  6. #51
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    The PCP story is amazing but the fact of the matter is that you don't need a drug induced high to bring about such a tough opponent. Adrenaline highs are capable of close to the same thing. There was a guy who took 4 shots to the torso from a cop then wrestled the gun from him and shot him in the head only to die from blood loss minutes later. I've even heard of drunks who were capable of taking tremendous beatings before being subdued. The truth is that the sociopaths out there are capable of extreme violence and killing, think about that next time you train. Are you realistically capable of handling this type of violence and killing your attacker? I think it helps if you realise and visualise what these people are capable of, now imagine that being perpetrated on your friends and family. Now tell me if you would have any problems killing. Conditioning yourself to kill if and when you would ever have to is actually very simple and believe it or not easier than you think. As far of the guilt that you may later feel, I think it has alot to do on how justified you feel that kill is. If you would later feel guilty , just think of how better off you are than if you would be dead, unless of course it wasn't a just kill. Some might think that this is easier said than done, and you know what, they're right but that still doesn't change what has to be done. Think about this deeply before you train but more importantly , FEEL it!

    It is better to be sentenced by 12 than buried under 6.

  7. #52
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Anecdotal Evidence

    Dear SpartanMachine,
    Here we go again. People are still arguing as if the choice is a straightforward toss-up between killing or being killed. Surely there's another way, even for people high on PCP? (I must admit, I'm still checking into that one.)
    If killing really is that easy for you, I think you might require counselling.
    Best,

  8. #53
    Sgathak Guest

    Default PCP Report (compiled from various sources)

    What is PCP?
    PCP (phencyclidine) is most often called "angel dust." It was first developed as an anesthetic in the 1950s. However, it was taken off the market for human use because it sometimes caused hallucinations.

    PCP is available in a number of forms. It can be a pure, white crystal-like powder, or a tablet or capsule. It can be swallowed, smoked, sniffed, or injected. PCP is sometimes sprinkled on marijuana or parsley and smoked.

    Although PCP is illegal, it is easily manufactured. It is often sold as mescaline, THC, or other drugs. Sometimes it may not even be PCP, but a lethal by-product of the drug. Users can never be sure what they are buying since it is manufactured illegally.

    What are the physical effects of PCP?
    Effects depend on how much is taken, the way it is used, and the individual. Effects include increased heart rate and blood pressure, flushing, sweating, dizziness, and numbness. When large doses are taken, effects include drowsiness, convulsions, and coma. Taking large amounts of PCP can also cause death from repeated convulsions, heart and lung failure, or ruptured blood vessels in the brain.

    Why is PCP dangerous?
    PCP can produce violent or bizarre behavior in people who are not normally that way. This behavior can lead to death from drownings, burns, falls (sometimes from high places), and automobile accidents. Regular PCP use affects memory, perception, concentration, and judgment. Users may show signs of paranoia, fearfulness, and anxiety. During these times, some users may become aggressive while others may withdraw and have difficulty communicating. A temporary mental disturbance, or a disturbance of the user's thought processes (a PCP psychosis) may last for days or weeks. Long-term PCP users report memory and speech difficulties, as well as hearing voices or sounds which do not exist. The effects of PCP can be very unpredictable. Central Nervous System effects can include euphoria, loss of inhibitions, anxiety, disorientation, restlessness, drowsiness, or disorganized thinking. There can also be distorted time, space, and body sensations, feelings of weightlessness, paranoia, and the feeling of being disassociated with the environment. The user can experience audial and visual hallucinations as with LSD. In the body, PCP raises the heart rate and blood pressure. It can also cause excess salivation, sweating, numbness, staggering, slurred speech, fever, and muscle rigidity.

    In toxic doses, the user can become hostile and violent, acting in a bizarre or psychotic manner. They may attempt to assault other people, or to harm themselves through self-mutilation or suicide. The person may experience amnesia and become catatonic. In high doses, there may be coma, convusions, and death. Persons who've received toxic doses must often be restrained and receive tranquilizers to calm them down.

    Many users report profound after-effects ranging from depression, disassociative states, confusion, paranoia, and feelings of insanity. By some reports, these symptoms can continue for years after the initial experience.

    Users have more sharply contrasting responses to PCP than to other drugs of abuse. It has profound effects on thinking, time perception, sense of reality, and mood; dreamlike states, euphoric or depressed moods, and bizarre perceptual experiences are reported. Negative aspects of PCP ingestion include disorientation, confusion, anxiety, irritability, paranoid states, and dangerously violent behavior. Hostility and belligerence can remain long after the drug is no longer measurable in the blood. Chronic users may also experience depression or a schizophreniclike state that can last months after discontinuation.

    Though rare, PCP use can lead to violent episodes. Some stemming simply from the general unpredictable reactions PCP can cause in its users, to extremely aggressive behavior often caused from "bad trips". These episodes can last from several minutes to several days and can range from random physical attacks on stationary objects such as throwing glass or punching walls, to extended violent assaults on persons and property which can often leave the user irrepairably broken (pulverized bones, to brute force amputations have been recorded) or even dead, as is occasionally seen by urban police officers who often must fire their weapons as many as 15 or 20 times to stop assailents who are using phencyclidine.

    How do PCP users feel?
    Users find it difficult to describe and predict the effects of the drug. For some users, PCP in small amounts acts as a stimulant, speeding up body functions. For many users, PCP changes how users see their own bodies and things around them. Speech, muscle coordination, and vision are affected; senses of touch and pain are dulled; and body movements are slowed. Time seems to "space out."

  9. #54
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Thumbs up Good Post!

    Sgathak,
    That's a good post, my friend. Very informative. Thanks very much. It made an interesting read. Now, where did I leave my PCP for randori...?

  10. #55
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    If killing really is that easy for you, I think you might require counselling.

    LOL, thanks. But I'm not a sociopath, I may just have to outdo one if I am forced too.
    Seriously though I don't understand your point though. Are you honestly telling me that if someone would threaten the life of someone you cared about you would have trouble killing to save a loved ones life?

    Some might think that this is easier said than done, and you know what, they're right but that still doesn't change what has to be done.
    This isn't something that is that "easy" to do for me or anybody like you said , but I believe that it is critical that you believe it MUST be done in order to do it.
    Now if you are arguing that is it right to kill another in self defense well then you have to go work this one out on your own because I am firmly convinced it is, and I do not believe that I would require counselling because of it, just the opposite. But I think it's something that you have to clarify and simplify within yourself or you will never be able to carry out.
    I also firmly believe that ALL people can be killers rightly or wrongly if they don't take control of what things mean to them for themselves, which is what must be done concerning killing for self defense or otherwise.

  11. #56
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Killing Is Never Easy

    Dear SpartanMachine,
    Are you honestly telling me that if someone would threaten the life of someone you cared about you would have trouble killing to save a loved ones life?
    Here we go with the bifurcation fallacy again. Why is killing the only way to protect a loved one's life? What's wrong with non-lethal force?

  12. #57
    Keith Mullin Guest

    Default

    Its not that they/we are saying that they are the only two options open to us most of the time, but that in some situations there will only be two choices. To put it into a metaphore, life is a multiple choice test most of the time, but there is such a thing as true and false. You cant argue with someone that is irrational or strung out on drugs, and you cant fight with someone that could wrestle with kodiak bear and win. Well I supose you could, but it would do you no good.

    For a hypothetical example. Say your a police officer and you come home from your shift to find a drugged up sociopath in your house with a gun to your spouces or childs head. Now lets say the deranged lunatic starts demanding something you cant provide or just damanding something non sensical and starts counting down from five for you to produce the object of his demands. You have five seconds to make a decision about what to do. There is fifteen feet, a coffee table, and a couch between you and him. You have a gun that you know how to use, and he has a gun to your families head. You dont know if he will actualy pull the trigger. Do you want to risk it and let him count down while you try to reason with him? If you can think of a way out of this situation where nobody ends up dead or injured through lethal intent Im all ears.

  13. #58
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    Kimpatsu, I don't know why you're jumping off the topic here . There is no bifurcation fallacy.We are not talking about a situation where you can remove yourself by escaping or controling an individual or de-escalating the situation. We are talking about life and death situations where you cannot control the situation and your life and/or the lives of others are in immediate danger of ending.
    Now the question was simply if necessary Can you kill ? And will you feel guilt afterwards? And I simply gave what I feel is the appropriate answer to this situation, YOU SURVIVE , Period !!! There is no moral dilema here. If there is a moral dilema it's either because lethal force is not necessary( no bifurcation here) or you haven't prepared to defend yourself and survive. I'm telling everyone here to prepare themselves for it or they definetely won't be able to do it, there are no real guarantees that they will be able to do it anyways but at least they have a chance.
    If the question is a moral one which is seems to me that for you it is ( you are unclear about the ethics involved and your own morality and the meaning behind that) then you need to work on yourself possibly through counselling as you said but I think you should be intelligent enough and driven enough to work things like this out for yourself. And if you aren't , well then the problem is with you and no one can change that , I am not so arrogant and ignorant to even try. Good luck.

  14. #59
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Bifurcations, bifurcations...

    Dear Keith:
    Since cops in North America carry guns, I don't suppose I could ever become one. To attempt to answer your question hypothetically, though: Can I not shoot to wound, rather than kill? Why would the protection of my family entail the murder of the madman?
    SpartanMachine: You gave me an either-or situation. That is a bifurcation fallacy, because there is always more than just two choices. Besides, if I'm doing my killing with a gun, what's that got to do with MA? I thought the intention behind this thread was whether you were prepared to kill with your bare hands, which would entail at most an attacker with a knife (anything more, such as a gun, and you're already dead).
    Yes, to me, killing is an ethical question, but it's also one explicated in SK with fusatsu katsujin (often translated as "thou shalt not kill"). I still can't find any moral justification for it, but then I live in the best of all possible worlds.
    Till the next round,

  15. #60
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    Mr. Kehoe, in reply to your much earlier post, yes, the justice system in the U.S. is that screwed up. I wish I could quote you examples, as there are many, but I don't have them with me out here, and my internet connection is too horrendous to search the net.

    I think I understand what you are saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong. If it is possible to use a potentially lethal technique, then it should be possible to a non-lethal one, or throttle back on the lethal technique to make it simply disabling. Thus, the threat is neutralized, and no one has died. Is that it in a nutshell?

    If it is, I think you have a made a good and valid point, and one that I cannot offer a logical argument against. The lawsuits are a fact- but are a weak reason for killing someone. The occasionally super-human rage and strength of the PCP addict is fact, but it is admittedly unlikely.

    I say if your skill and self control using non-lethal and submission techniques is such that you can neutralize your attacker, that's wonderful. My 'problem' is that the techniques I would resort to, the ones I would put my faith in, are potentially lethal strikes, since my background is in the striking arts of Wado-Kai karate and TKD. True, I could direct the blows to less-damaging areas of the body...the knees, for instance, but in a desparate situation I'm afraid that they might not work. So, I would rather go for targets that are more easily damaged, like the throat. Unfortunately there is a greater chance of fatal injury too.

    In a situation where your life or the life of your family is in grave danger, what is important to me is neutralizing the threat by any means neccesary. To borrow from the Shinkage Ryu, "Satsujinken, Katsujinken". The sword that takes life, the sword that gives life. My twisted morality tells me that if by taking a life you save your own life or the life of a family member, AND the lives of his would-be future victims, then you're in Katsujinken territory. But if you can do all that and not kill the aggressor, my hat's off to you.

    God, I'm long-winded.
    David F. Craik

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