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Thread: Seiden Daito ryu Aikibujutsu SoHonbu/ Sagawa Yukiyoshi

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    Default Seiden Daito ryu Aikibujutsu SoHonbu/ Sagawa Yukiyoshi

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    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 04:59.
    Nathan Scott
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    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Re: Sagawa-ha Daito ryu Aikibujutsu

    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    I thought I'd start a thread here in which we can document "public" comments and discussions about this group.

    A big reason for creating this is in response to a new article uploaded today on Aikido Journal online, about the Sagawa dojo:

    Sagawa dojo article

    This report was written by Paul Wollos, a member of this forum, who has apparently received instruction at the "Sagawa-ha Daito ryu Aikibujutsu" main dojo in Kodaira.
    Coincidentally, I happen to train with one of the other people in the article (Hiroyuki Hasegawa), so it was interesting to hear the report from the other side.

    If anybody's interested, Kimura (from the article) has a book out (in Japanese) that covers a lot of Sagawa's instruction ("Tomei na Chikara", or "Transparent Power"). It's one of those books I keep on meaning to read but haven't got around to yet. I believe that he also has a book out on vector mathematics, if your tastes run that way .

    Best,

    Chris

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    Dan Harden Guest

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    I second Nathan’s Cautions-but I fear it is like speaking to the wind.
    The Sagawa Dojo is without a doubt THE most conservative of the schools. I fear the brashness of the west will close any open door very fast.
    We can only hope that THEIR understanding and tolerance of us is greater than ours for them. Perhaps it would do well to advise those seeking them out that it is a VERY slow and long road. There will be no rank nor any honors to be received there-only much sweat, with no reward other than the result of much hard work. Since Nathan brought up a corollary to TSKSR I will continue in that vein, you can't come home and teach it regardless of skill-or you’re outside looking in.
    You can't "steal" the skills-as it will take you years to learn the basics. Would you study 5 techniques a year? And be satisfied?
    How much do you "really" know the techniques you think you know now?
    Slow training is neato- Over the years everyone learns who each other truly "is."
    Budo tourists, Egoists, self serving "martial arts masters" and all other shallow types will be found out-and given a window seat.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 28th December 2001 at 13:41.

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 04:59.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    Mr. Li - so is Mr. Hasegawa a student of the Sagawa dojo now? We'd love to hear about his experience on that day as well, if he (or you) would care to comment.

    Nope, he's still an aiki-bunny . I wrote my impression of what he told me of his experience with Kimura at the Aikido Journal thread if anybody's interested. He loves to talk, so if you ever run into him (and speak Japanese) you could get his impressions in a lot more detail.

    FWIW, I would probably translate "Fuseishutsu" as "unparalleled" in this case rather than "extraodinary", but that's just my impression based on a quick flip through the book (I really do have to get to it one of these days).

    Best,

    Chris

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 04:59.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    Fair enough. Unparalleled might be more true to the intended feeling of the kanji and context. I didn't spend too much time with the translation - just confirmed what Mr. Stevens had written (which is also "extraoridinary") in Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary. It lists fuseishutsu as "rarity", and continues with "extraordinary; uncommon; unparalleled; unequaled; matchless; peerless".
    I actually haven't read "Invincible Warrior", does he reference the book in a specific context, or is it just a bibliographical reference?

    Best,

    Chris

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 05:00.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Nathan --

    Why wouldn't you believe in tengu? While Takahashi's first dictionary definition of tengu is "long-nosed goblin," the second is "self-conceited person." There are some self-conceited people in the karate world, so perhaps a few found their way to aiki land, too.

    Anyway, for kanji and some stories about tengu, see http://japanese.about.com/blhiraculture19.htm

    Meanwhile, for the Japanese body language for tengu (defined here as "conceited braggart") see http://lov-e.com/RLSArticlesfolder/JBL4.html

    Finally, for some philosophic and academic interpretations of tengu as a vain, conceited, braggart see http://caic.org.au/eastern/mahikari/mahi101.htm and
    http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~rcm/draft.PDF .

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 05:00.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    I've read "Invincible Warrior", and I'd have to say that it is one of Steven's better books. It does, unfortunately, continue to spread the same rumors about magical, mysterious events that he has been critisized so heavily for.

    I came across an interview of John Stevens in an old issue of Aikido Today magazine, and he states - among other things - that he believes in the existance of tengu! That would explain alot.
    I've trained a little bit with John Stevens, and he does tend to look at things in a cosmic sort of light, but so did Morihei Ueshiba, so it's not necessarily a bad thing, considering the context. I think that you just have to keep that in mind and take his work as it is (I know that it drives some people nuts, though). He certainly does know his stuff.

    In "Aikido Ichiro" there's a section where some of M. Ueshiba's pre-war uchi-deshi talk about Ueshiba's psychic powers - sounded like they believed it, too! Me, I'm still looking for that golden ball of light - now maybe if I can just get somebody to hit me on the head hard enough maybe it'll start showing up...

    Best,

    Chris

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    scott nichols Guest

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    Mr. Li or Mr.Scott If one wanted to purchase the book you have been discussing about Sagawa Sensei, could it be obtained through a local book store? Is the book still in print, or is it only available in Japan? Thank you...Scott Nichols

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    Originally posted by scott nichols
    Mr. Li or Mr.Scott If one wanted to purchase the book you have been discussing about Sagawa Sensei, could it be obtained through a local book store? Is the book still in print, or is it only available in Japan? Thank you...Scott Nichols
    It's available through Amazon Japan (which is where I got it), but I'm not sure whether they ship abroad or not. Kinukuniya definitely ships abroad, and if they don't have it in stock they should be able to order it for you - they also let you order online.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Kinukuniya is a fabulous bookstore. They have two stores that I know of in the US: one in San Francisco (in the Japanese trade center) and one in New York City (mid-town Manhattan). I'm guessing that you can order books by phone from either of them.

    They have a lot of hard-to-get English language books on Japanese subjects, as well. And, the store in NYC is the first place where I saw Stanley Pranin's books on display.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Kinukuniya is a fabulous bookstore. They have two stores that I know of in the US: one in San Francisco (in the Japanese trade center) and one in New York City (mid-town Manhattan). I'm guessing that you can order books by phone from either of them.

    They have a lot of hard-to-get English language books on Japanese subjects, as well. And, the store in NYC is the first place where I saw Stanley Pranin's books on display.
    If anybody's interested you can order online at the Kinukuniya page.

    Best,

    Chris

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