Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai

[Jyri]

Amatsu sensei's viewpoint about Daito ryu is a bit different. Here is link to the his homepage:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/

It doesn't contain much stuff yet, but it is still worth of visiting.


Amatsu sensei has also written an article about Hisa Takuma and Daito-ryu. It is available in our (Takumakai,Finland) home page:
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

I hope you find these links interesting.

Jyri Lamminmaki
Daito-ryu Takumakai, Finland

[Nathan Scott]

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[CKohalyk]

Mr. Scott,


>The idea of using the legs to pin the opponent is very >logical, though most of these pins seem to be used in >Jujutsu as opposed to the Aikijujutsu (is this the case?)

I believe Amatsu-sensei is referring to striking here. He always says that since the legs are many times stronger than the arms, don't bother using arms for atemi. Use a joint-lock to throw the enemy down, then strike with the legs.

But Jyrki-san knows more about this than I do.

CK

[MarkF]

OK, Nathan, you just gotta prove your point using what is not true necessarily of judo, don't ya?

Transition in judo is not 1,2,3, but maintaing a lock on the opponent is a tried and true manner of control, and it ain't no secret, either! While rule of shiai or randori say one should not "wrestle" one to the mat, tori can take a skeletal lock, using atemiwaza to unbalance the opponent, taking him down with the appropriate nage, maintaining control, is tested and true, even with a "basic judo hip throw."

I won't mention the word, but sometimes it is just there and while uke may feel it, tori won't even realize just what it was that he used to take down his uke.

Of course, this is just the omote of judo. You won't know the ura for at least three decades, if that. It takes a firm commitmant to judo, just to open the door. If you are there after this, then you may understand this, and even then you may not. Hehehe.

Next lesson, we will visit the most ancient of judo kata, ko shiki no kata, but remember to bring your armor.

Mark

[Nathan Scott]

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[Sheridan]

Amatsu-sensei might have been speaking of ura-kata himself in this case? (Not sure.)

[Dan Harden]

1. Do not just throw the enemy. Throw him in order to attack his joints. Daito ryu's main objective is to attack the joints.

2. Use your legs. Legs are stronger than arms.

3. Daitoryu has no Atemi (striking). When it looks like striking it is a trick for attacking joints.
***********************************

Gentlemen

You are going to have a difficult time fleshing this out.

First:
To say "Daito ryu's main objective is this"
OR "Daito ryu is this or that" are very definitve statements aren't they?
Personally When I hear such things, I ask myself "This gentleman's statement is based on which Daito *RYU*?
Do you suppose the Daito kan teaches the same techniques as the the takumakai? Roppokai? etc. Do you think the manner in which they express Aiki are all the same?
Secondly:
These statements are not very detailed. I could (for example) make an argument that his statement regarding the legs may have nothing at all to do with "Striking with the legs", as postulated here.
Positional placement of the legs, in many jujutsu arts will (in a technical sense) do many things, with the use of the legs to pin the opponent when he is *down* (mentioned as well) being only ONE part of the use of the legs. In deeper arts they also have subtle uses to pin an opponent in place while he is standing up, or in dropping him. Moreover, use of the legs to "effect various responses" in someones joints is a lengthy discussion in and of itself. Any discussion of the use of the legs is pointless without a rather detailed discussions of entering methodology, vectoring, use of placement of center, upper body and well.....everything else. "Trying to brace the roots, when the branches are freely swaying" is a pointless exercise.
Further, You could talk till you were blue in the face. TKD people, Judoka, Bujinkan, Aikido, Yanagi ryu and all manner of everyone else could say "AHH! Yes! yes! I get it. We do it too."
Then you watch them
They are NOT doing the same movement, or effecting the same principles....

AND that is just ONE sentence. The other two statements are a week's worth of discussions. Yet very little, if anything will be gained discussing it. The people who really know, won't discuss it anyway.

regards
Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 11-09-2000 at 07:08 AM]

[Brently Keen]

I agree with Dan.

In Daito-ryu (at least in the Roppokai branch) we do have many different ways of striking/attacking the enemy. Unless Amatsu-san was purposely being vague or misleading though (which is possible), our concepts and interpretations of what constitutes atemi and striking may be quite different.

One could actually observe Roppokai practice for a long time and hardly (if ever) see conventional atemi or striking techniques. And therefore come to the conclusion that atemi are not included or practiced by our group. However, as is often the case in Daito-ryu the truth is hidden beneath the surface. It's intentionally not obvious, so you can't even see it.

First it depends on how you define "atemi", and what constitutes atemi. Then it also depends on how and in what context one uses atemi.

Ueshiba said that aikido was 90% atemi. What does that mean to most people? What did HE actually mean when he said that? What was he talking about?

Lot's of people who practice aikido actually reject this whole idea. Others use this statement to validate the addition of striking techniques from other arts into their aikido - usually in order to be more "practical", "street effective", or combative. Many people think this is the difference between aikijujutsu and aikido, but that's just another myth. IMO neither are correct, but that's aikido. From my perspective within Daito-ryu, the conventional conception of "atemi" as "punching" is not only dangerous, it's almost laughable, or as my seniors used to say "nonsense".

Amatsu-san is correct when he says we don't have atemi in Daito-ryu (but I would add "conventional" atemi). Sokaku Takeda said, "...we will not strike, we will not kick, we will not kill." But what did he mean by that? That we do not have striking, kicking or killing techniques? What about the famous "ichigeki hissatsu" techniques? One of the first things you have to learn when you study aiki is that reality and appearances are two different things, in fact things are hardly ever what they seem to be. A clue is found in what Sokaku said in his next few sentences, "It is completely for self-defense..."

Some of you are probably wondering why I'm contradicting myself here, because in other posts I've talked about the combative or "jutsu" aspect of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as a classical system (koryu bujutsu) as opposed to the more self-defense oriented modern (gendai budo) styles of jujutsu/aikido. I'm not, it's merely a paradox that only seems contradictory until it's seen in the right light and/or in it's proper context. Sorry, but even as a member of perhaps the most open, progressive branch of Daito-ryu, I don't think a public forum such as this is the proper context in which to divulge those "secrets".

I suppose I've said enough already. Good post Dan.

Brently

[Earl Hartman]

Just a quick note about atemi. The word is composed of two Chinese characters: "ateru" (usually meaning to strike) and "mi" (body). Thus, "striking body".

It should come as no surprise to anyone that this could mean different things to different people. In Nagao Ryu, for instance, atemi can be either a quick strike with the hand or foot, or it can involve grasping/attacking "kyusho" (vital points) as a component of unbalancing and throwing, or as a finishing technique. There is also subtle atemi involved in how the attacker's hand/arm is grasped. None of these things are as obvious as a "karate style" punch or kick, so as Brently says, they are not out in the open. I am not that familiar with aikido or aikujujutsu, but I have had aikido practitioners demonstrate certain wristlocks such as sankyo on me. The way in which the wrist is manipulated involves atemi, that is, attacks to certain anatomical weak points or nerve bundles in the hand and wrist, which can render the recipeient helpless. These are contained within the technique, which looks like nothing more than a wrist twist to the uninitiated, and so are not visible as discrete strikes. Thus, while they don't look like what people think atemi might look like, they are atemi nonetheless. In many Nagao Ryu kata, success or failure depends entirely upon whether the initial atemi attack to the target kyusho is successful or not.

On one of the Daito Ryu websites (I can't remember which one) there is a picture of Tokimune Sensei. The thing about the picture that was most immediately noticable to me was the obvious strength of Tokimune Sensei's hands and wrists. The reason I noticed this is because my Nagao Ryu sensei had incredibly strong wrists and fingers; for such a small man his grasping strength was phenomenal. Once he laid his hands on a kyusho, it was all over. To an onlooker, it would appear that he was only touching a person; in reality a kyusho was being attacked. This is very subtle, and without knowing what to look for, it can't be seen, as Brently says. This is not to say that Daito Ryu and Nagao Ryu atemi techniques are the same, so we don't need to go over that again. I only offer the Nagao Ryu example as another part of the mix.

Earl


[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-10-2000 at 12:19 PM]

[richie]

Greetings,

I am looking in my new Nelson guide to kanji and need the
number for the appropriate kanji for soden. Any help would be
great. Also there is a term "nebari". I found it in a kenjutsu book.
Any ideas on its meaning. Thank you.



R. Rivera

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[George Kohler]

could it be:


This means inheritance or handed down

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I suspect the kanji for "den" may be an older version of the kanji you have presented. Can't say for sure though without my dictionaries.

HTH,

Hi Nathan,

Yes, it is an older version of the one that I posted.

[Nathan Scott]

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