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Thread: Sparring vs. Kata

  1. #91
    Maximilian Guest

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    Originally posted by Chris Li


    Apparently that's more or less a myth. Kendo and Judo were deemed inappropriate as part of the public school curriculum, and many martial artists (Japanese ones) became confused as to what and wasn't allowed. However, there was no general ban on the practice of martial arts (according to K. Ueshiba in "Aikido Ichiro", which discusses the post-war situation in detail).

    Best,

    Chris

    Hi Chris Here is this:

    The aftermath of the 2nd World War was a dark era for Japan and things Japanese. As part of Japan's war effort, instructors had been ordered to teach unarmed combat. In retaliation the occupation forces prohibited all practice of the martial arts in schools and public institutions. The ban remained in place until 1951 although there had been a gradual relaxation of the rule. Private instruction in judo was tolerated and the police were excepted from the general prohibition.

    And web link:
    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/hist.html

  2. #92
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    Originally posted by Chris Li
    Apparently that's more or less a myth. Kendo and Judo were deemed inappropriate as part of the public school curriculum, and many martial artists (Japanese ones) became confused as to what and wasn't allowed. However, there was no general ban on the practice of martial arts (according to K. Ueshiba in "Aikido Ichiro", which discusses the post-war situation in detail).
    In a follow-up to my own post, I'd like to note that the apparent reasoning for the elimination of Kendo and Judo from the public school curriculum was not that they were too "deadly and dangerous", but the military manner in which they were presented.

    Best,

    Chris

  3. #93
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    Originally posted by Maximilian
    The aftermath of the 2nd World War was a dark era for Japan and things Japanese. As part of Japan's war effort, instructors had been ordered to teach unarmed combat. In retaliation the occupation forces prohibited all practice of the martial arts in schools and public institutions. The ban remained in place until 1951 although there had been a gradual relaxation of the rule. Private instruction in judo was tolerated and the police were excepted from the general prohibition.

    And web link:

    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/hist.html
    The above quote says exactly what I said, they were excluded from the public school curriculum. There was no general ban on martial arts practice. Private dojos and even private schools can and did continue training throughout this period.

    As a side note, a number of things with military connotations where excluded from the public school curriculum.

    Best,

    Chris

  4. #94
    Maximilian Guest

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    Originally posted by Chris Li


    In a follow-up to my own post, I'd like to note that the apparent reasoning for the elimination of Kendo and Judo from the public school curriculum was not that they were too "deadly and dangerous", but the military manner in which they were presented.

    Best,

    Chris
    Chris during WWII some of the most vicious
    hand to hand encounters happened in the
    Pacific Theater. During this encounters
    it was noted that the japanese will attack
    with the bayonet or confront a marine
    without hesitation.

    The effective unarmed capabilities of the
    japanese infantryman led the occupation
    forces to ban the public practice of the
    Martial Arts in public venues. After all
    they did not want the world to know that
    an average japanese infantryman could beat
    a well built 6 foot marine in
    a fast and furious encounter. In which the
    japanese soldier was able in many occasions
    able to kill the marine.

    These are historical accounts from both sides
    that I have compiled.

    Thank you,

    Maximilian

  5. #95
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    Question Oscar winning performance?

    Maximilian,

    Not to be nitpicky, but I couldn't help noticing that your name is identical to that of the Austrian-born, Oscar-winning actor, Maximilian Schell. I admired his performance as the attorney for accused Nazis in "Judgement at Nuremburg," as well as his lesser roles in other movies such as "The Odessa Files." A fine and mannered actor to the core.

    Were you named for him, or is this a nom de plume you have chosen to conceal your identity (from your perhaps conservative system/dojo as well as from us)?

    As James said, the senior exponents here are all identified and we know with whom they have trained. Some have revealed their lineage at a cost, being from conservative systems that eschew public identification of ryu, teachers and exponents. If you choose to post opinions publically here, then it is a risk you too must make, to identify yourself and your source. Otherwise, perhaps it is best not to participate in recreational public forums.
    Cady Goldfield

  6. #96
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    Originally posted by Maximilian
    Chris during WWII some of the most vicioushand to hand encounters happened in thePacific Theater. During this encountersit was noted that the japanese will attackwith the bayonet or confront a marinewithout hesitation.The effective unarmed capabilities of thejapanese infantryman led the occupationforces to ban the public practice of theMartial Arts in public venues. After allthey did not want the world to know thatan average japanese infantryman could beata well built 6 foot marine ina fast and furious encounter. In which thejapanese soldier was able in many occasionsable to kill the marine.These are historical accounts from both sidesthat I have compiled.Thank you,Maximilian
    As I said, there is confusion on this issue even among Japanese. There 's a pretty good summary of the issue at http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~masaki-o/thesis3.html if you're interested. The short answer is that GHQ pressured the Ministry of Education to remove such things from the curriculum, and prohibited public competitions. There was no ban on private practice.

    The reasons given in the Japanese press at the time were the military presentation of those arts. There may have been other reasons such as the ones you named above, but knowing what I know of American thinking and the history of the occupation I very much doubt it.

    Maybe they eliminated Kyudo from the public school curriculum because they didn't want the world to know how deadly those medieval Japanese archers could be ?

    Best,

    Chris

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    Wow. This thread is still going...

    Hey Maximilian, I didn't know that anyone can get an MBA in Philosophy.

    Could you list the source of the accounts you have compiled? It might make interesting reading.

    I personally knew/know several elderly Filipino gentlemen who were fighting against the Japanese and they don't seem to recall them quite as undefeatable as you described.

    I doubt the average Japanese infantryman knew AJJ.

    Maybe what we are dealing with are your own personal fantasies and delusions of grandeur.

  8. #98
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    Max wrote: "The effective unarmed capabilities of the
    japanese infantryman led the occupation
    forces to ban the public practice of the
    Martial Arts in public venues. After all
    they did not want the world to know that
    an average japanese infantryman could beat
    a well built 6 foot marine in
    a fast and furious encounter. In which the
    japanese soldier was able in many occasions
    able to kill the marine.



    "These are historical accounts from both sides
    that I have compiled. "

    Max,
    Please send me or post the historical accounts you mention. While I am in no way a historian I have studied and continue to study this era of history and to date I have not read much to support such claims. The Japanese infantryman was for the most part willing to attack and give his life with everything he had but I haven't seen anything to suggest the superiority you suggest. Actually the opposite, the poor supply lines into the south Pacific led to malnutrition, which led to physical weakness. As the war went on this increased. Anyway, I would sure like to read your references and learn more.

    As for who you trained with and which style, I to would be interested. I was about to post such a request but James beat me to it. Many of us that participate on this forum and others have met or at least know about the others. Some have shied away from the opportunity when it was presented to them but we still know something about their background. James's question is reasonable and germaine since you initially claimed first hand knowledge of the subject matter. Your subsequent post has left me questioning if you have any experience outside of books. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated and helpful in understanding your perspective.

    Like Cady I wonder if you have given your real name. This is important simply because those that hide behind false names have zero accountability for their posts and therefore frequently post inane material. I am not saying you have done so, you have not, just trying to understand for future discussions. Thanks.

    Since I am being nosy I am also curious if English is your first language. Please don't be offended if it isn't, your language skills in English are far superior than anything I will ever accomplish in a second language.

    mark

  9. #99
    MarkF Guest

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    Max (My brother and grandfather's name),
    Let's just get to the route of it and say it is a rule at E-budo to sign one's post with one's full, real name. You may continue to do so manually, but it would be simpler to set the signature editor to do so for you. Once it is set as your default, you don't have to sign manually.

    The others are correct in that you gain much more credebility by disclosing your name and your budo.


    Mark

  10. #100
    Guest

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    Max,

    On your bio it says, karate, kobudo & aikido. Yet you post here some rather mighty bold talk concerning AJJ. You also make some bold statements about AJJ's purpose and effectivenmess during "Imperial Japan".

    Humm? How can you make such a claim.

    You were politely asked to identify your teacher.You instead eschewed providing us your qualifications to present your claims.

    Where in Texas do you live? I'm curious, as I believe I am familiar with every legit AJJ instructor in Texas. Maybe there is somebody out there I'm not familiar with. If you're close by, is your dojo and sensei available to the public?

    Toby Threadgill / Soryushin Dojo
    Dallas, Texas

  11. #101
    Maximilian Guest

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    Gentlemen, my Aikido study comes from the Ki Society,
    Karate from Goju-Ryu, and Kobodu from the same School.
    Daito-Ryu was more or less acquired by watching Soke
    Angier's videos. Need more practice.

    As for my other credentialas they are academic as I
    hail from Germany (West side that is). My interest
    in oriental arts have brought me into doing more research
    about it. As such I have access to documents and files that
    most people do not have.

    Many believe the japanese soldier was ineffective, not so,
    many think they were not well supplied. Explain how a bunch of them escaped an island without being seen and so on.
    I am merely seeking more information fact from what I read
    As all of you in here have access to things. Another thing
    is I am only visiting Texas not living here. And yes my
    english is not very good as I speak german, italian, and
    romanish. So forgive my grammar and language skills. Any
    and all information will be appreciated, my apologies for
    causing such a stir. And yes this my real name I would not
    hide my identity.

    I will be departing for Japan in about 2 weeks I have been here 6 month. Thank you and again my sincere apologies

    Maximilian Schell

  12. #102
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    Max,
    Thank you for your clarificatioin post, it helps a great deal. I think your first post came off a little authoritative and strong, which I believe is what everyone was reacting too. Probably not what you intended but I can only imagine that conversing in a second or third language can lead to such a miscommunication. By the way, a very impress list of languages, I feel a little dim witted to be stuck with only one (and not very good at that one). Welcome to e-budo and best of luck in your travels and studies.

    mark

  13. #103
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    So basically you lied.

  14. #104
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Originally posted by Maximilian
    Gentlemen, my Aikido study comes from the Ki Society,
    Karate from Goju-Ryu, and Kobodu from the same School.
    Daito-Ryu was more or less acquired by watching Soke
    Angier's videos. Need more practice.

    As for my other credentialas they are academic as I
    hail from Germany (West side that is). My interest
    in oriental arts have brought me into doing more research
    about it. As such I have access to documents and files that
    most people do not have.

    That about says it all.

    I seriously doubt that you have access to documents regarding Japanese military history that professors Bodiford and Friday are not at least familiar with, or could not put in their proper historical light, they of course being not only budoka but doctors in Japanese history as well as academically reviewed and published.

    The good doctors have gone a long way toward dispelling the popular historical notions, some of which you are repeating, about Japanese budo and martial arts history that seem to plague those with with marked enthusiasm, but less circumspection than is generally expected of folks claiming academic credentials.

    I seriously doubt that after some Ki Aikido, and watching some videos of Don Angier, you are in any place to inform Toby Threadgill, James Williams, Ken Good, or several other direct students of Don Angier anything about Aikijujutsu.

    I can tell you your comments about combat effectiveness strike a sour note with the Navy Seal, the SWAT team member, and the Military Pistol expert/tactical combatives trainer among the posters on this thread alone. Perhaps you have direct, extensive combative experience with the Aikijujutsu you saw on Angier's videos?

    Y'see, Max, your contribution IS welcome. Just understand how much weight it will be given is in direct proportion to what you can demonstrate you actually DO know. Most of us can read a lot between the lines.

    Don't think that you have some kind of learned perspective that will bring light to this bunch of ignorant budo barbarians. You are not impresssing anyone so far with what you think you "know," but you are indeed making a distinct impression with how you put it across.

    BTW isn't the accepted modern academic reference ASIAN instead of ORIENTAL?

  15. #105
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    Originally posted by Maximilian

    Daito-Ryu was more or less acquired by watching Soke
    Angier's videos. Need more practice.

    When did Don Angier start putting out videos of Daito Ryu? From everything that I've read, or heard from his students, he is quite adamant about the Yanagi Ryu's distinct/separate history from the Daito Ryu. James, Toby, or Ken correct me in I'm wrong, but I believe Stanley Pranin said that only about 40 percent of the Yanagi Ryu seems to have a base, or common bond, in Daito Ryu.

    Someone needs to get their story straight before they post to people in-the-know.

    Cheers,
    Rob Erman

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